MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
A guy cuts you off in traffic. You have the chance to do the same to him at the next light. Do you do it? Or how about a group that sees itself as oppressed attacks random members of the group they see as their oppressors, even if they're not personally responsible? What should happen? Our next guest thinks there is a human desire to get even. It might even be an addiction. But he also thinks there's a way out. James Kimmel Jr. is a lecturer at the Yale School of Medicine in psychiatry, and he's the author of a new book titled "The Science Of Revenge." James Kimmel Jr., thank you so much for joining us.
JAMES KIMMEL JR: Thank you, Michel. It's my pleasure to be here.
MARTIN: You know, in the book, you tell this really poignant story about how you, as a young person, realized that you had a taste for revenge. I mean, as briefly as you can, do you mind telling us that story?
KIMMEL: When I was a teenager, my family had moved to the country, and I wanted to befriend the neighboring farm kids. The harder I tried to connect with them, the more they resisted that. And that eventually turned into several years' worth of bullying, actually. And, you know, it started with unkind words and moved to some physical forms of violence. They killed my dog, blown up our mailbox, staged an explosion at our house. And I decided that I needed to do what I wanted, which was go get some revenge against them. So, you know, being in the country, my family owned a lot of guns. I had been shooting guns since I was probably about 8 years old. I grabbed a loaded revolver from my dad's nightstand. And at the last second, I had this kind of insight, this flash of inspiration, that if I killed them, I'd be killing the person I knew myself to be.
MARTIN: And then you became an attorney. And in your own account, basically, you found that this was a socially acceptable way to bully people, and you were good at it. What made you want to stop and take a look at this?
KIMMEL: Yeah. I kind of went into the professional revenge business, where the lawyers or the people that have the rare license in society to prescribe, manufacture and distribute revenge in society - like, I couldn't get away from it. It always called me back - those great, soaring highs that I was getting from getting justice in the form of revenge.
MARTIN: How did you arrive at the notion that - well, first of all, that revenge seeking is something that's almost hardwired?
KIMMEL: You know, there's no 12-step programs for revenge addicts in society or rehabs, but I felt like I needed something like that. And this neuroscience study in 2004 showed that it activates the same area of the brain that activates for substance use disorders, for, you know, drug addiction. But it took 20 years to get from that first study to today, I think, for us to be able to conclude now that your brain on revenge looks like your brain on drugs, and that's exactly what the brain scans show.
MARTIN: What I hear you saying is that we all have the capacity for revenge, but some people pursue it. So why is that?
KIMMEL: We're hardwired to do this back as early as perhaps the ice age and coming forward. But what has happened now and what happens all too frequently is that that natural desire for revenge that we all have becomes a compulsive desire for people. And it can be activated not just for attacks that would threaten our lives or our ability to procreate, which is the evolutionary process, but simple attacks or perceived attacks - they can be real or imagined - that target our egos, our identities, our self-image.
MARTIN: You wrote an opinion piece for Politico titled "What The Science Of Addiction Tells Us About Donald (ph) Trump." And in the book, you expand on this. Donald Trump as a candidate, I mean, particularly in this election, made it clear that part of his motive was seeking revenge. So what's your take on that? Like, what do you think it's about?
KIMMEL: It's not only Donald Trump, but he's really in the public eye right now and is willing to use his desire for revenge on an almost daily basis. But as I said, all of us have it, so it's not a conservative or a liberal issue. It's a human issue, a deeply human issue that's hardwired.
MARTIN: You write that former President Barack Obama, in pursuing Osama bin Laden, who is the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks - you cite that as kind of a case of revenge. But this is where I think some people might say, well, what's the difference between revenge and accountability?
KIMMEL: What I talk about with, you know, Barack Obama is not only the Osama bin Laden experience, but the way that George Bush and Barack Obama led the nation into the killing of people in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars to get that vengeance. But is this the only way for humans to make themselves feel better after they've been wronged when it causes so much pain, additional victimization and only lasts a few minutes or hours?
MARTIN: Do you think that there's hope for this? Because as you pointed out in the book, there are deep cultural warrants for revenge seeking. It's part of our literature. It's part of our culture. It's part of our sacred texts for some of us. What persuades you that you can persuade other people that there's a better way?
KIMMEL: In all of those sacred texts, we also have a deep philosophical and spiritual warrant for forgiveness. Philosophy preaches forgiveness, and now neuroscience shows that forgiveness has direct, pain-relieving brain biological benefits. Forgiveness is a practice. You can imagine thinking of a grievance right now in your mind, and now just imagine how you would feel if you decided to forgive it. Normally, when I ask that question of people, they'll respond, well, if I decide to forgive it, gee, I would feel better. Now, that might only last for a few moments. But with forgiveness, you can do that again and again and again, as often as you like. It's all in our best interest. If we want healing from trauma and pain and the wrongs of the past, there it is. It's available for you right now.
MARTIN: James Kimmel Jr. is the founder and co-director of the Yale Collaborative for Motive Control Studies, and he's the author of "The Science Of Revenge." Mr. Kimmel, thanks so much for talking to us.
KIMMEL: Thank you, Michel. It's been my pleasure.
(SOUNDBITE OF FLAWED MANGOES' "SWIMMING") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
